Travis Linden: [00:00:00] I hit a wall with how much work I was doing constantly and with how not fulfilling that any of that was. I'm never gonna work in the game industry again and I don't even know if I want anything to do with games.

Travis Linden: It's getting easier for people to cheat fake homework with AI. We're asking really big questions about what any work that we do even means in the AI age.

Travis Linden: Generally when we talk about burnout in the game industry, it's your boss working you too hard. I totally did this to myself with trying to work full time and make the indie game thing happen as a business. Centering my life way too much on my career.

Travis Linden: I really think that the answer to all of these questions is making your in-class time as valuable as possible. I'm gonna be making my career out of like convincing professors to try to act learning principles.

Travis Linden: There are just so many things that I was realizing simultaneously. I didn't wanna be a full-time programmer. I don't want all my income to revolve around the monetary success of the art that I'm making.

​

J.R.: [00:01:00] Hello everyone and welcome back to another insightful and fun episode of One Thousand Gurus with me, your host, J.R. Yonocruz. Today's guest is Travis Travis Linden Reid, who was guest number six on season one of the show over a year ago. It was nice to have him back on the show with a fresh new name. We get into that story in the beginning, but this was such a peak episode.

J.R.: It's always such a pleasure to chat and connect with Travis. I'm starting to see that teachers are some of my favorite guests on the show, as they tend to be the most eloquent and reflective people, which is obviously par for the course as a teacher, distilling what you know to other people.

J.R.: For Travis, he's so knowledgeable about the insights that he's learned and it's always nice to have him back on. We chat about what his last year has been like teaching game development classes at UCI, how he's recovered from burnout by shifting his career away from video games, and the process of running his indie game studio that's currently building a boy band stalker sim, as he calls it.

J.R.: It was a fascinating conversation to have and to re-listen to, and I hope you enjoy as much as I [00:02:00] did.

J.R.: So without further ado, hope you enjoy this conversation with Travis Travis Linden Reid.

J.R.: Hello everyone, and welcome back to One Thousand Gurus. Please welcome my guest, Travis. 

Travis Linden: Hey, really happy to be back. I'm excited to chat again. 

J.R.: Yeah, thanks for being here. All right, so just to get outta the way, Travis, formerly known as Travis Linden, you were on episode number season one, episode number six, I believe, and yeah, you went by Travis Linden then, oh, sorry, just more context recording.

J.R.: We recorded that on August 28th, 2024, last year published on November 11th. So yeah, your name change. Would you like to go into how that occurred? 

Travis Linden: Yeah, totally. Yeah. So for viewers who maybe knew I'm a trans man, and when I originally picked my name, it was, this was like years and years ago when I picked Travis Linden.

Travis Linden: I picked something intentionally like androgynous because I wasn't sure. [00:03:00] Where my identity was going to end up. And so for the last few years, I've actually been putting off my legal name change until just now, because I knew that I wanted to figure out something else. And so Travis was something that I just really liked the vibe of it.

Travis Linden: It's is very obviously I think masculine. So if I'm walking into a space where I don't know what the vibe is or I don't know if we're sharing pronouns or whatever, I think that kind of immediately tells people what my pronouns were if they weren't sure. It also just sounds like traverse, which I think is cool because it sounds like a journey or, a change.

Travis Linden: So, yeah, I really like it. Travis Linden is still my middle name, so it's not like a taboo, it's not like a dead name or anything like that. It's still my middle name. And it still has a very special place in my heart, but Travis is my first name now. 

J.R.: Nice. So was that also the, for the legal process of changing name to Travis, did you also change your middle name to Travis Linden?

Travis Linden: Yes. Yay. Okay. Okay, gotcha. Yeah. So my name, my full name is Travis Travis Linden [00:04:00] Alexander Reed. Wow. Wow. Because I also couldn't let go. I also really like Alexander. Yeah. I knew that was always gonna be my middle name, but then I was like, well, I don't wanna get rid of Alexander or Travis Linden. So, yeah. Now I just have two middle names.

J.R.: Nice. Yeah. You are Latino or Filipino or one of those people have like multiple middle names. I dunno if you know this, but you know, like Filipinos, like they traditionally have like five names or like Uhhuh, a two-part first name, and then two middle names, and then maybe a hyphenated last name. So it's like you have a series of six names and you're like, geez.

J.R.: Yeah. So I know that's like a Latino thing as well. That's a Filipino thing. I'm sure other cultures have that too. So now you are Filipino or Latino, I guess. 

Travis Linden: Awesome. I'm in a club. Cool. People with lots of names. Yeah. 

J.R.: Yeah. So, wait, Alexander was your middle name before as well?

Travis Linden: Yeah, Alexander is the masculinization of one of my old names.

J.R.: Oh, I see, I see. Gotcha. Yeah, 

Travis Linden: and I always really liked it, so I didn't want it to be something that people were calling me, but I also didn't wanna totally let go of it 'cause it's an awesome [00:05:00] name. Yeah. I really like it. So, yeah. Yeah, 

J.R.: definitely. Well, now you are officially the second Travis I've had on the show.

Travis Linden: Nice. Yeah. Yeah. The first 

J.R.: Travis is also a very masculine dude. He's works out all the time. We talk about fitness, we talk about anime, so yeah, you stereo stereotypically masculine. So yeah, I think you fit in the club. It is a very dude name. Sweet. I like it. All right. So I know in the last show we talked about you, this was right before you started being professor at UCI.

J.R.: Mm-hmm. And so I just wanted to close the loop on that. Right. So how just in general, this will be our first topic technically, but how did that go? I guess general. Okay. Jumping off point. So how was it like. 

Travis Linden: It's the coolest thing that I've ever done. I love teaching so much. Yeah. This is, so, I think, yeah, last, when we talked about it, it was like a few weeks before, maybe about a month before I actually started teaching my first class.

Travis Linden: So now I have my first full year under my belt and I've started teaching like the same, I'm teaching the [00:06:00] same classes again this year. And we're like four weeks in. Yeah it's fantastic. I love teaching. It's, first of all, I mean, the bar was low, but way better than programming full-time.

Travis Linden: I actually do code a lot for my class because I create coding assignments, so I have to code them before the students, code them and, and break them down, write all the questions, instructions and such. But the face-to-face time and like feeling like I'm doing something really important because I'm a huge part of somebody's college education.

Travis Linden: It's fantastic. It's so much more satisfying to being a programmer. 

J.R.: Yeah. I like it. Okay, so now my logistical brain is churning. So how many classes do you teach? How long are the classes? And I think quarter system. Right. So 10 week classes. Yeah. And so how many classes per quarter you've taught for three, four quarters now or something like that?

J.R.: I don't know. Can you walk me through all that? 

Travis Linden: Yeah, I'm in my like, like fourth quarter basically. 'cause we've got the quarter system, which to my knowledge is like uc specific. I've never seen another school [00:07:00] maybe like Sanford or something. Right. Don't know. We don't do this in Texas. 

J.R.: Yeah. 

Travis Linden: Where I'm from. But yeah, the quarters, we've got three regular quarters a year. And I teach one class a quarter right now. And I actually also just accepted an offer to start teaching at Fullerton College. Ah. Which is a community college. So I'll be teaching either one or two classes a semester starting next semester, but right now I'm just teaching one a quarter.

Travis Linden: Yeah. I'm teaching a sequence of introductory game programming classes. 

J.R.: Okay. So when someone signs up for your class. So, so you've completed three quarters so far? 

Travis Linden: Yeah. 

J.R.: So when someone signs up for your class, like what is the, it's been so long since I was at UCI, but what is the structure like? It's like one, one lecture per week, and then is there what's it called, the smaller class things? I don't remember. How does that work? 

Travis Linden: Yeah. So we have most of the classes at UCI, I think they're usually like two lectures a week, maybe three. And then some of them have labs or [00:08:00] discussions on top. Right. Right. Which I think is, which is the extra thing that you're thinking of? 

J.R.: Yeah. 

Travis Linden: My classes, because I used to be commuting from LA, I actually live in OC now, but because I was commuting from LA I set them up so that they're once a week, three hour long courses in the evening, on a weekday evening.

Travis Linden: Okay. So that's a little bit nonstandard. See, but I'm continuing with it because we do programming activities in class. And so that gives people plenty of time to we have a little bit of lecture and then a lot of discussions and coding. 

J.R.: Okay. So it's three hours. Mm-hmm. Once a week in the evenings.

Travis Linden: Yeah. 

J.R.: Do you have like discussions or labs or something like that outside of that? 

Travis Linden: No. I would love to have labs. Okay. I think that every single introductory programming class should have labs, but this class wasn't set up with them when I joined it. And so we just, I make students bring a laptop to class and we code in class.

Travis Linden: I just turned it into a lab. Mm. I actually went to a like bootcamp for professors over the summer at UCI called the Active Learning [00:09:00] Institute. And so I follow active learning principles where we do our passive learning, like watching videos, reading stuff outside of class, and we do all of our active learning our projects and stuff during class time.

J.R.: I see. I like that. Yeah. So how do you feel like it's different in experience-wise for your students? 

Travis Linden: Yeah, it's super, super different. I follow again, that like doing the active learning stuff in class in the past of learning outside, we call that like a flipped class structure. So it's totally different than your standard college class where you go in and the professor just talks at you for an hour, hour and a half, and then you do.

Travis Linden: All of your active learning, so like you're practicing with your homeworks and you're studying and stuff like outside of class. We totally flip that. Well, I do also make you code outside of class. So you do your, you do active and passive learning outside of class. We do as little passive learning inside of class as possible.

Travis Linden: So I talk like as little as possible. And it's a lot of even then back and forth with the [00:10:00] students asking questions, having students present things having them answer questions, stuff like that. So very different than a very typical college class. 

J.R.: Yeah. Do you feel like, I don't know what other courses or similar courses do, but have you gotten good feedback from students on do they enjoy this sort of method and does it work more for them or they learn better?

Travis Linden: Yeah, absolutely. Part of the reason that I'm so into it is because the research that we read for the Active Learning Institute really supported this. Including for STEM classes, including for introductory level STEM classes like mine, like a, beginner programming class. And really a lot of the feedback that I got from last year, I was doing more lecturing but still had in-class activities.

Travis Linden: And the students, a lot of their feedback was just, I wanna do more of these activities. I feel like I learned the most through these activities, I want more time for them. And so part of why I did the institute was to like learn exactly how to do that. Mm. Okay. So, yeah. Yeah, I think it has really good [00:11:00] outcomes.

J.R.: Yeah. I can imagine having not taken the class or but to, when you explain that structure, it makes a lot of sense to me inherently because yeah we'll do passive learning by ourselves outside, then maybe we have questions, and then when we actually do active learning, that's where they can now leverage you as the teacher.

J.R.: Yeah. To ask questions and to do these things and you can walk them through or hold their hands on those sort of things. And I feel like that's a, fundamentally, it's such a better learning experience because now you're actually getting more out of that three hours you're spending in class, rather than just zoning out and

Travis Linden: yeah, yeah. No, exactly. As somebody with A-D-H-D-I, I can't walk into that classroom and be like, you have to pay attention to me for the next hour and a half, because I don't do that. I literally can't do that. I try to not ever ask my students to do something that like I couldn't even do. Makes sense. That seems unfair to me.

Travis Linden: And so also you mentioned, the in-class time they get to leverage me. I also have learning assistants who are upperclassmen in the same program, who took these [00:12:00] classes previously who they're basically taking a different class for credit, that's a teaching class, like a class that teaches them how to teach.

Travis Linden: And then they come into my class and they facilitate the activities. They facilitate the discussions, they facilitate the programming. Like they help the students while they're programming. And so they have me, they have the ta and they have all of these learning assistants or LA's for short helping them out during the activities. And they have each other. 

J.R.: Yeah. 

Travis Linden: So, yeah. It's, it's more of like a 

J.R.: conducive learning environment with everyone. Mm-hmm. Actively learning. 

Travis Linden: Yeah. Absolutely. And it's a very safe place to fail too, which is great because programming is very stressful when you're new to it. And so the activities I grade based solely on participation. The homeworks, you know, we actually like grade based on completion and accuracy. But the in-class activities, if you can get through all of it, the stakes are lower and you have all that support there. So you have all that time to like practice doing things and have a good, fail safe so that when you go to do the homework, you've [00:13:00] probably got a pretty good grasp of it because you had that practice time in class.

J.R.: I like that. Yeah. Okay. So it sounds like a fun experience and you found a method that works for you and works well for the students. Were there some things I'm curious that you expected. But then also on the flip side, some things that you didn't expect that you'd like to share? 

Travis Linden: Oh yeah. I think the unexpected things are all the results of trying something that somebody hasn't tried before. As a student, I never got to experience this in any of my programming classes. So when I am running a programming class and I'm like, we're gonna do a discussion activity now, I'm like, we are gonna find out, I'm gonna find out with you guys how that goes and how effective it is.

Travis Linden: And I have to take that leap of faith with my students because I never got to like experience that as a student myself and see [00:14:00] whether or not like what worked or what didn't. The thing that's been unexpected to me is actually how well discussion activities are going and how helpful that they are to students.

Travis Linden: And the fact that I was even able to come up with discussion questions that made sense because when I was going through the institute, and then also when I did a consultation and had some emails back and forth with the person running the institute so that I could come up with the best like class material and structure possible, something that I was getting stuck on was like, how do I come up with having students discuss material that's technical when they're complete beginners?

Travis Linden: And. Because even a lot of the examples that we got in the institute were for like mid-level or like senior students in a topic where it's okay, you've learned about all the little details of how these systems work and you've practiced building them. So now let's discuss how we would build a system.

Travis Linden: But somebody who's just learning coding for the first time, they can't design the whole system. Think about it like [00:15:00] you're teaching somebody like carpentry and you just taught them how to use a hammer and a nail, and now you're like, design a bench. Right? So how do we, what are the in-between questions that we can ask to get them building up to that stage? Right.

Travis Linden: 'And the thing that I've found the most surprising is that there even are like beginner discussion questions that we can come up with and like that the students are actually like very brave and tackling even difficult things that I do throw at them. Sometimes I do a little like evil cackle in class and I'm like, you're all going to be terrified by this, but I want you to try it anyways.

Travis Linden: I've been very pleasantly surprised in their bravery to attempting it. 

J.R.: Nice. Even 

Travis Linden: when I do throw them a little bit like more difficult question. Yeah. 

J.R.: Ah, yeah. You like, you're, you enjoy that when you throw it on the gauntlet, they're like, all right, let's go. Let's do it. 

Travis Linden: Yeah. Let's do it. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess really, yeah. My answer is really I'm very pleasantly surprised with how brave they are at tackling the, this [00:16:00] very unconventional class structure. Yeah. And meeting the demands of it.

J.R.: I would imagine too, and maybe I'm just supposing this, but this seems like a class someone wants to take because maybe they want to go into it as a career.

J.R.: Right? As opposed to those classes where it's okay, this is a ge, I have to take this. Yeah. Prerequisite or whatever. So I imagine the motivation going in is a little bit different and you're like, look, I can, I've done this. I do this, I can walk you through this. And so for me, I feel like I'd be more excited anyways, so that makes a lot of sense.

Travis Linden: Well, well wait, but that's the catch because my students, their major, that absolutely applies to but my classes, their sequence of three technical classes that they have to take, that they never take technical classes again in this major. Oh, I see. They don't have to take any programming classes again, unless they are like double majoring or minoring in something like computer science related.

Travis Linden: My students, they don't have to take technical classes in this major ever again. Mm-hmm. So most of them are [00:17:00] actively dreading my class. I see. They're very passionate about the idea of being able to build games, and even doing the coding sometimes like independently. But they are very, very nervous about it.

Travis Linden: And so this was actually a big discussion that I had when I was doing the consultations to design the best class structure possible is like really making sure to sell the buy-in. Because and I think even professors that don't have that big of an issue that like, that the students do bring that passion I do have a buy-in challenge for the class.

Travis Linden: Mm-hmm. And so, I do still have to, sell and justify to the students why these skills matter to make sure that, we actually facilitate them bringing that passion to the table. 

J.R.: Okay. Yeah. So then what if, so you're saying that for this major. They don't necessarily need to learn technical skills.

J.R.: But your class is very technical. 

Travis Linden: Yeah. Well, they, they do have to for the major, but it. Doesn't necessarily mean that their title after they graduate will be programmer. 

J.R.: Okay. 

Travis Linden: And [00:18:00] I'm a programmer who's teaching them programming skills, but they may go on to be a designer who never writes code or produce.

Travis Linden: I see. Designers who decide what the game systems are, but don't actually write the computer code themselves. Or they may go on to be a producer who figures out scheduling and dependencies and all of the things that make games be delivered on time. But again, they don't write code. 

J.R.: So I see, I see.

J.R.: What is that major 

J.R.: then that your students normally are? What's it called? 

Travis Linden: Yeah, it's the GDIM major. So it's game design and interactive media. 

J.R.: Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So then if there are students who want to be like a coder or develop games like what you're teaching, would they take another major or, I'm trying to connect the dots there. Because I feel like if people wanna do what you do. Your class is extremely invaluable. Right. But if you're saying that this general major, they might not necessarily be in a technical role, which is cool. But then what about the people who are like, no, I actually do wanna do this stuff. 

Travis Linden: Yeah. Yeah. I talk to students I [00:19:00] talk to students like that a lot, and I always advise them to either double major in computer science or minor in, I think the minor UCI i's information in computer science.

J.R.: Okay. 

Travis Linden: So that way they get those software engineering fundamentals on top of the game design skills. Right. That'll be really important to be really strong programmers in the field. 

J.R.: Right. Yeah. I feel like that's so important. Let's say you go into video game design or something that's not technical, but then you take this class or like you said, get a minor or a double major or something like that.

J.R.: I think if. If the goal is to get a job right. I think that'll only help you. But I can understand the hesitancy of oh no, I'm kind of scared of the technical side of it 'cause I don't really wanna do that. But yeah. But then I talk to students all the time as well and it the common fear is I wanna get a job, obviously, and I want to be productive and pay off the loans and have a good career.

J.R.: And I think going as a comfort zone and standing up by having, let's say a double major in something technical and then general, like video game design, I feel like that would be helpful. Mm-hmm. And I feel like maybe people [00:20:00] would see that, the value in that. But you're still saying you still kinda have to give people buy-in to take your class.

J.R.: Mm-hmm. Okay. 

Travis Linden: Yeah. Yeah. So what I mean by the buy-in aspect is I do think that our classes are valuable for somebody, even if they don't wanna do the computer science like route. Yeah. Like even if they don't wanna be programmers, if they're like, I really wanna be specifically a game designer or a producer or some other role I don't wanna have to code full-time.

Travis Linden: The technical fundamentals that you learn in my class are still super, super valuable. So first of all the rest of your major, you're gonna be making video games. So if you're the person on your team who brings some kind of coding skills that makes you really valuable on your team, or if you're doing something solo as a designer or you just don't wanna wait to have to get a super skilled programmer on your team.

Travis Linden: Having some of those programming skills down is huge. Also, the rest of your major and in the field, if you are a designer or [00:21:00] producer and artist in anything in the game industry who has a little bit of technical literacy, you'll be very well-liked on your team. Mm-hmm. That's like no matter your role all of the tools that we learn in class, even if you never write a single line of code again, you will use those tools again.

Travis Linden: For example, a game engine is something that we learn in class, and that's the program where all the art, the sound, the code, the design, all comes together. Most of the people on the team touch it at some point. If you have on your resume that you know how to use an engine or if you're in your job and you're somebody that has that like competency, that's huge.

Travis Linden: Yeah. Useful for everybody. Even if you don't code again. 

Travis Linden: Yeah, 

J.R.: totally. As again, as someone who also works in tech and even if you're not on the technical side of it, if you're not a developer on our team, even if you're on any other side of it, having the technical skills or familiarity with the tools, like you said, super invaluable.

J.R.: Especially if your goal is to be liked [00:22:00] by your employer, by your team and everything like that. And just general beefing up your resume and being a valuable candidate.

J.R.: The next question I had is what aspects do you enjoy most about being a professor and any aspects that you like the least?

Travis Linden: Yeah, my favorite, sorry, I'm laughing. Trying to think about what I would say is the thing that I like the least. Yeah. My favorite thing about it is like any moment that I get where I've been guiding a student through something and the gears turn in their brain and something finally clicks for them and they can demonstrate to me that they've learned something. Magic. Amazing. Yeah. Best feeling in the world. That's my job to make those moments happen, which is perfect because that's exactly what I'm chasing. That's just like the best feeling ever.

J.R.: The next question, I'll kind of tee it up, is general advice to students and then general advice to other [00:23:00] professors. 

Travis Linden: Cool. Okay. 

J.R.: You just love everything about it. There's nothing you like the least, huh? 

Travis Linden: No. I have to come up with a diplomatic answer.

J.R.: Okay. Yeah, that's what I suspected. How do I say this the right way?

Travis Linden: Okay. I have a diplomatic answer. The only thing that I don't like about it is the thing that I'm struggling with right now in my career is making it full-time where my full-time job can just be teaching. I see. That's just what I'm figuring out how to do because one class a quarter as an adjunct, that's not full-time.

Travis Linden: That's like 33% time I think. And so there's a few different routes that I'm looking at and I don't currently, as of speaking, feel the spark to do research. Most professors at a university and to my knowledge any tenure track ones also do research. They get a PhD. The PhD lead you on a research path. It teaches you how to research. It's not about learning how to teach. [00:24:00] And that is a major part of their contribution to the university.

Travis Linden: I really wanna focus on teaching, at least right now, at this point in my life. So the difficult thing for me is figuring out how to make it full-time. 'Cause full-time adjunct positions, which is a professor who's not doing research are hard to come by. I just wanna teach, yeah. I don't wanna, I'm done with strategizing or whatever, somebody just let me teach full time.

J.R.: Yeah. Yeah. So, I'm curious, I know you're, that's the process. You're trying to figure out. What are some of the possible ways that you can transition to more of a full-time? I don't know if you've probably done research on how other professors are set up or how they got there, but what does that path look like to make that a reality? 

Travis Linden: Yeah. I don't really have this quite figured out yet. It's a little bit just on a department having a full-time role. 

J.R.: Like opportunities open. Okay. 

Travis Linden: Yeah. 'cause really it's, the teaching world, it's not quite, the same way in like industry where it's just about moving up, like just because you're good at your job or whatever. There has to be a role, there has to be a need, right?

Travis Linden: There have to be [00:25:00] classes that are like a full-time amount of classes open at a department that they're like, it makes sense for us to have an adjunct fill this role. 'Cause the people who are researching also have responsibilities for taking on a certain number of classes at different points in their career.

Travis Linden: Another route would be like teaching community college full-time. So that's also something that I'm exploring with picking up the job at Fullerton College, which I'm super, super excited about 'cause I'm gonna be teaching video game programming classes there too. And community colleges, you don't have the PhD or requirement.

Travis Linden: They like to see a master's, but you know, they wanna see. Basically just some demonstration of knowledge and then the passion for teaching. So, those are sort of the two options that I have are going for a tenure track role at a community college. Or going for like a full-time adjunct role at a university.

Travis Linden: And it still, again it really just depends on there has to be a department that has that, like those that need open for a full-time adjunct in this particular like niche.

J.R.: Oh, I see. So it's like, 

Travis Linden: I think [00:26:00] it's gonna be a little bit of time. Yeah. Time and luck. I see. Yeah. 

J.R.: So is it, again, I don't know how like the professor career track is like, but so you can teach at universities and also community colleges, but you're saying that a full-time would have to be either or or am I misunderstanding?

Travis Linden: Yeah. Well, I mean, I wouldn't if I had a full-time job in one place, I wouldn't also teach classes elsewhere just 'cause I wouldn't have time. 

J.R.: Gotcha. Okay. So it's like you can, you can technically do all these like part-time teaching positions at different colleges or different universities. Yeah. But it's more just like you can fill it up with a full-time role at one spot or multiple other spots.

Travis Linden: Yeah. And I am also doing something a little bit strange in trying to do this because adjuncts, like most of the other adjuncts that I've met at universities, they have another job that they work full time and they just teach maybe one class like a year at a university, either for extra money or just because they love teaching or whatever, but they're not trying to make it their full-time job.

Travis Linden: So I [00:27:00] see. Yeah. I'm doing something a little unusual, which is why it's hard. 

J.R.: That's interesting because I asked selfishly because one of my dream careers is to be a professor, but I do like, yeah, yeah. I do like the idea of doing it part-time because that's what I do wanna do. Like I'm not trying to, yeah.

J.R.: Have a full-time job. Like by this point in time, I would've made it so well that I would just do this for fun because I enjoy teaching, and so I feel like, okay, that makes sense. Then it's giving me like a possibility of, okay, I could be an adjunct professor, or however that manifests and do it part-time.

J.R.: Yeah, and it seems like other people do that as well. 

Travis Linden: Yeah. Do you want some advice about it? Oh, mean, that's why I'm, that's 

J.R.: why I'm here and that's why I'm talking to you. Yeah. Perfect. 

Travis Linden: Good, good. Well, yeah, I mean, I like giving people advice, like that's why advice, I'm a teacher now, so the first aspect that like. Okay, this is also just like from my understanding of how people get these jobs. Having some kind of, like having the big professional experience background.

Travis Linden: That's a huge part of it. I worked in the game industry [00:28:00] for 10 years or something as a programmer. And so I had that, under my belt. 'Cause they do wanna see that professional experience. The other thing I think is just demonstrating some kind of interest or commitment to teaching or mentorship on top of the career that you're having.

Travis Linden: And also through that you can like, build connections that like lead to those jobs, right? So for example, my whole career I did a lot of different various mentorship and one of those roles was mentoring for the capstone class. So the like final class for seniors in the program that I'm now a professor in.

Travis Linden: Not a coincidence at all. I think we talked about this actually last time. 

J.R.: Yeah. We did a little bit. 

Travis Linden: That, that mentorship role essentially led to the job that I have now because it gave me the connections and clearly already dedication to their program that like led me to getting the role that I have now.

Travis Linden: And then also I had done a little bit of guest lecturing already. So if you have friends that are professors just offered to help their class [00:29:00] anyway. Tell them like, if you need a mentor, if you need a guest speaker or whatever. Then, telling them that you're available for that or, reaching out to community colleges and or serving on an advisory board for a curriculum department or something like that.

Travis Linden: Those kinds of things can show that. You're also interested in mentorship and education outside of just, your career. So I think that also definitely helped me. 

J.R.: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Thank you for that. There's a lot of, yeah. Last interview. And this one is great because it's a good reference point of what are the opportunities. You can just start laying the foundation to going in that direction. So it's very helpful. Yeah.

J.R.: My next question is, well, to tie this section up, is advice to students taking your courses Yeah. And then possibly advice to other professors on what you've learned Yeah. And what could help them?

Travis Linden: Yeah. My advice for my students taking my courses is, yes, you can take all of the large amount of advice that I already give you in face value. So, the class participation is just absolutely everything. [00:30:00] If the professor. If you're doing anything in your classes that's not just like the professor talking at you, like lecturing, it's because there is a ton of effort put into making that class experience really worth it.

Travis Linden: And so, whatever you need to make, like your class experience worth it come to class and then definitely give me that feedback. Tell me about what you're interested in doing in class, what kind of exercises are and aren't helping you. Ask for help, but also ask for what you need, come to office hours.

Travis Linden: Both mine and the TAs come to the lass. We also have tech support hours on Discord, outside of class. Utilize every single resource that we have because I don't want you to be like sitting there doing your homework by yourself. Just like I don't even know what to do. All the resources that I give, all of the pre-learning, the lecture slides.

Travis Linden: The examples, the tutorials and stuff, like they're really there to be designed exactly. To make you successful in the homework. So utilize all those resources and then tell me what's working for you and what's not working for you because I wanna hear it and I wanna give you the best material [00:31:00] possible to help you succeed. So that's what I would tell my students.

Travis Linden: What I wanna do with my teaching career outside of just be a good teacher is I'm, I wanna be on the like active learning crusade. So I really think that professors should consider the active learning principles, you can start with baby steps. Like even just having clicker questions or a question and response moments in your class, or just taking a few minutes out of your lecture to have pose a discussion question in groups or something like that.

Travis Linden: You don't have to go immediately for the big, like flipped, totally flipped structure where we like hardly lecture at all or whatever. If you're not comfortable with that. But we're really like, we're really moving into a new era of education where the internet's been around long enough that students could learn so much of what you're saying in your lecture, regardless of your subject outside of class. And it's getting easier for people to cheat fake homework with ai.

Travis Linden: Mm-hmm. [00:32:00] We're asking really big questions about what any work that we do even means in the AI age. Right. I really think that the answer to all of these questions is making your in-class time as valuable as possible by doing the active learning stuff. We're really moving past the era. I think we're just talking at students is like the best way that we can have a relationship with them and get their money's worth out of their education.

Travis Linden: I really think like I'm gonna be making my career out of convincing professors to try the active learning principles because you will also be very enriched by doing that instead of giving the same lectures year after year. You'll be very, I think, pleasantly surprised by how your class can surprise you and how it enriches your life if you're really getting the most out of your class time.

Travis Linden: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I've got, I could go on. I can keep going on. Yeah. I like it. Yeah. 

J.R.: Yeah. I feel like it's. Like what you just said, it'll benefit not only the students, but the professors as well to Yeah. Adopt or move towards this style because it's, yeah. No lose there. I mean, it's, you have to sacrifice the [00:33:00] comfort of what's familiar and what is traditional.

J.R.: Right. But other than that, it's it's a win-win.

Travis Linden: Yeah. Aren't we like other professors who do research aren't we innovators anyways? Right. There's the Active Learning institute at UCI we're really doing some really interesting stuff. And so why not be innovators inside your classroom as well as outside, plus then you don't have to talk for an hour and a half straight.

J.R.: There you go. 

Travis Linden: Several times a week. 

J.R.: Yeah. Un unless, I guess, unless you love that.

Travis Linden: Even as much as I love talking. Yeah. I don't, I am enjoying spending 30 minutes a class talking instead of an hour and a half. 

J.R.: Right. Yeah. I feel that too. Yeah. All right. I think unless you have anything else, we can transition to the next topic or two different topics, let's choose your own adventure, in the spirit of video games. The first one is burnout and recovery, and the second one is your indie game. What do you wanna go to first? 

Travis Linden: I think we should go into the burnout and recovery next, because since we've been talking about my teaching career already, these are very intricately linked. 

J.R.: So my jumping off question is, could you walk us through this burnout and what caused it or led to it? 

Travis Linden: [00:34:00] Yeah. I am, I'm gonna really be so honest and bear my soul because there's some things about this that are like embarrassing then, and it's like, it feels so my fault, but I also really hope that talking about it like helped some other artists who went through the same thing.

Travis Linden: When I was trying to make my indie studio a business, which I'm not trying to do anymore. Now I'm, nowadays I'm just trying to make art. But when I was trying to make it a business and work full time, I hit a wall with like how much work I was doing constantly and with how not fulfilling that any of that was that I really, until a few months ago was like, I'm never gonna work in the game industry again. And I don't even know if I want anything to do with games.

Travis Linden: Sometimes it's embarrassing to talk about, and this was so hard for me to deal with because in the industry, generally when we talk about we think about like burnout in the game industry, it's your boss like working you too hard and you're crunching, which is what we [00:35:00] call, working ridiculously long hours. Especially right before a game releases or something, and it being part of some like systemic thing that like somebody else did it to you.

Travis Linden: But I totally did this to myself with trying to work full time and make the indie game thing like happen as a business and centering my life way too much on my career.

Travis Linden: And what happened after that was like, there are just so many things that I was realizing simultaneously that I just really didn't want to do. I didn't wanna be a full-time programmer. I actually love programming. I just don't wanna do it 40 hours a week. I think that's a very reasonable, very reasonable thing.

Travis Linden: Don't want making and selling a entertainment product to be my primary source of income. I don't want all my income to revolve around the monetary success of the art that I'm making. I don't want to be a business person. And most of unsurprisingly starting a business as being a business person, even if that business is art.

Travis Linden: Right? [00:36:00] But what discovering all of this simultaneously led to was me just thinking that I just couldn't have anything to do with games at all because of that part that I told you where all of those things that also were not working for me simultaneously were the center of my life. Because my career was the center of my life at all times even if I didn't wanna admit that it was.

Travis Linden: My hobbies were gaming, my career was gaming, my free time was building my indie game studio. It was like way too much. I had to really believe for like over a year that I was gonna try to transition away from video games. Totally. And even though I was teaching, I was like, maybe I do go get a PhD in something that's not video game related so that I can teach something that doesn't have to do with games and programming.

Travis Linden: But over the summer, like a couple of key things happened and I think my love for games came back in a renewed way where I'm like, I actually want, first of all, the center of my career to be teaching and the center of my life to not be my career. And now that I have that figured out, my passion for it [00:37:00] came back and I'm like, oh, I can enjoy this again in a healthy way this time.

J.R.: So then you realize that, well, so the career wise, you figured out it wasn't, or it wasn't meant to be gaming, but actually teaching. 

Travis Linden: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, because teaching, it's still really hard work, and I spend more time than anybody's asking of me on my course design and my course materials and stuff.

Travis Linden: I could have just borrowed a previous professor's lectures and found some okay-ish textbook and just gone by that or whatever. But I'm really putting like a lot of time and heart into developing the class, unique from scratch, exactly how I think it should be designed. So I'm spending a lot of time on that.

Travis Linden: But the important thing compared to what I was doing before is it is also very fulfilling. Like the work that I put into it really pays off. That what I was telling you earlier about my favorite part of it, where like seeing like the [00:38:00] light bulb light up in a student's face when they figure something out. I'm getting back out of it as much as I put in.

J.R.: One thing that came to mind, I recently heard this, but it's the concept of burnout, right? And from the source, it was saying that the reason why you get burnt out or like the mechanism behind that process is putting in a lot of effort and not getting the intended result that you want.

Travis Linden: Yeah. 

J.R.: And so I was thinking about that recently. Okay. So the reason why people feel burned out is like they're putting so much effort, whether it be career or relationship or something like that, and then the result isn't what they expected. And then that's the burnout. 'cause you're like, ugh. But then you realize that, and correct me if I'm wrong, so you're doing gaming, but you didn't get that sense of fulfillments or that sort of release at the end of that process.

J.R.: And that's probably why you're burnt out. But then you get that in teaching when you see the light bulbs click, you're like, okay, this, all this work was worth it. Is that kind of Yeah, similar. 

Travis Linden: Yeah, exactly. And it like. Part of me took a long time to realize that this was burnout because I hadn't accepted [00:39:00] that exact definition of it that you just gave.

Travis Linden: To me, burnout was just, your boss made you work too hard and you're tired. Right? And that is that is also very real. That does happen in the game industry where people burn out because they're being made to work like ridiculous hours and they don't get to see their families and sleep enough and stuff, right?

Travis Linden: Mm-hmm. Oh, those are important. And that also is, yeah, it's also bad. There is also another way to achieve burnout. That's exactly the process that you're talking about, where it's like you're putting a lot of work in and you're not getting like the fulfillment that you were expecting out of it. And it's not because you're not patient enough or because you're working too little or whatever, or too hard even.

Travis Linden: It's really because there's a huge mismatch here between the amount of work that you're putting in and whether or not the results that you are getting are like, personally fulfilling for you. And I just don't get that from trying to make commercial art products. It just, that just doesn't work for me.

Travis Linden: There's so many things there that [00:40:00] may totally work for other people. There are a lot of people that genuinely, really enjoy that biz dev, a business development side of running an indie studio. Not me. Not me though. Yeah. I like it. 

J.R.: Okay. So when it comes to now creating art, not as a career, so now you separated that. What is the fulfillment or the feeling that you get, that you enjoy from creating art?

Travis Linden: Yeah. It's really about communicating a feeling and then having somebody else understand it. The indie game that I'm building, it's about this really it looks on the surface, like it's about a boy band. It's about a fan. It is about a fan who has an unhealthy relationship with a boy band. I'm communicating this character's feelings and her arc, like over this story and when people get it that is also very magical, which just it's nice when that gets to a giant audience. Which is why we have those fantasies of building a huge company so that a million people [00:41:00] play our games or whatever. But it doesn't really take it's not always worth the biz dev to get there. 

J.R.: I see. 

Travis Linden: And it's really about like the big question that I'm asking myself now is like what effort? What is the right balance, that effort to get it in front of an audience, to have that. That satisfaction out of it.

J.R.: Okay. So I'm curious now. You said it's, when it gets to the point of, okay, the person playing my game, they get it. What are the feedback loops that allow you to know that people are getting it and or is it sort of like a metrics thing where it's okay, this reached a hundred thousand people, or, oh, like you said, is the biz dev worth it to get it to in front of a million people? Right. But what is that feedback loop that allows you to feel that I, that my, the player gets it? 

Travis Linden: Yeah. So for me on a small scale, it is satisfying just to watch somebody play it and hear their like thoughts about it. And right before the school year started, I was running some [00:42:00] like a public beta test for the first time, which is just, not just making my friends or my partner play it or whatever, but like I've got like a small discord server where I've got a bunch of people who are playing it and leaving feedback in the server.

Travis Linden: So we can move from like that scale to that scale. And then if you're asking me how do I know when I'm satisfied based on how many people have played it or. Man, I don't know, because that well is like endless. That well could be endless of which is something that I started to realize when I was trying to be like successful as an artist, right? Is I saw immediately that, that well of oh, well how much is enough to, like, how many people do I need to play it and tell me that it's good you before that's like satisfying. And I'm like, Ooh. Kind of like scary question, right?

J.R.: Okay. So then at the moment it's like at the stage or the phase or the level that it's at, even just getting that feedback while it's in beta and then maybe like when it gets to that next level that is already in itself satisfying compared to, let's say, your [00:43:00] old life of doing it as a career. Maybe you didn't get that sort of feedback 'cause you were working in a bigger company.

J.R.: But in this indie environment you can get more of that and then as you scale up, you'll probably feel more of it. 

Travis Linden: Yeah, so I guess so if we're comparing this to the satisfaction of having a job as a programmer on a big team. The thing that's not satisfying about it is how far removed I think that you can feel from the thing that you're making.

Travis Linden: So for example, it's really rare and it's a really magical and lucky moment when you get to work on a project that you would actually play if you weren't getting paid to. 

J.R.: Mm-hmm. 

Travis Linden: Do think that the games that I worked on when I worked in the industry, I worked on a lot of mobile action strategy games for some reason, which I would never play those. I would never play those if I wasn't being paid to.

Travis Linden: There are games that satisfy somebody, like people, I think that the one that I worked on at Blizzards a great game for people who enjoy those types of games, but [00:44:00] I'm just not one of those people. So there's just so many things like that that just create this alienation step, whether it's like a giant team or a boss that you don't like or just not liking, enjoying the skill that you're doing for 40 hours a week. I just don't enjoy programming 40 hours a week. There's all of these gaps between like you and the product. Even if you get to see players like playing it and there's a million people playing it and they all love it or whatever. That certainly is also satisfying. But to me personally, these little gaps of satisfaction are just huge for me compared to.

Travis Linden: Like even just the satisfaction of having a dozen friends playing something that I designed the entire thing from scratch. All of the successes are mine. All of the mistakes are also mine. But it's that's all my project. This is something that I really wanted to see in the world. All of those gaps being closed is like very important to me personally.

J.R.: I love it. Alright so far you've given a lot of good insights on this and now just to wrap it up, do you have any general advice for other people who may be facing burnout and how to get [00:45:00] out of it? 

Travis Linden: Yeah, so God, one of my friends who I haven't even seen in months, sent me this one Instagram message one time when I was like complaining about this on my story, the burnout on my story and I have not stopped thinking about it since.

Travis Linden: I was like I don't know how to move on because I, I was so convinced at the time like, I need to like move on to a new career. What I had specifically said, I had been complaining on my Instagram story, just like venting on my story as one does about like, how do I enjoy the idea of being excited about anything again.

Travis Linden: Because I was so, I was so deep in the pit, I was like, I don't even know how to be excited about my old career. I don't know how to be excited about a new career. I used to be an incredibly, what's it called when you want a lot of ambitious person. I don't know how to be excited about being ambitious again, about like having dreams again.

Travis Linden: I wasn't feeling like any of that and I was like venting about that on my story. Like how do I ever feel any of that again? And they messaged me and were like, [00:46:00] you won't again until you like actually fully accept that you might not. That you don't actually want that. And that was really interesting to me.

Travis Linden: And I really haven't stopped thinking about it. And it wasn't until the moment, until I was like, I really have to accept that I'm never gonna be ambitious in the same way as I used to be. Because all of my thoughts and feelings have changed about what that actually like means for me. Then things actually clicked and then I also watched my partner play the Nathan Drake games and I was like, oh, games can be fun.

Travis Linden: And then I remembered that games can be fun. 

J.R.: Yeah. The reason why people play games is 'cause it's fun.

Travis Linden: Yeah. I was like, oh, this is all supposed to be fun because that's not a genre of game that has anything to do with my personal interests, ah, values, what I care about making in games, anything. But it was just fun.

J.R.: Yeah. 

Travis Linden: And I was like, oh yeah. Like they can just be fun. So my advice to people from everything that I learned from all of [00:47:00] that, I, if you're dealing with burnout specifically, is.

Travis Linden: First of all, you have to be able to call it what it is. 

Travis Linden: Don't be so full of like shame about it that you won't even do things that you need to do to take care of yourself. If you need to take a break, if you need to not be working full-time, if you need to take a break from your industry, if you need to take a break from an old image that you had of yourself, of the kind of ambition that you used to have, or whatever. You really have to internalize that break.

Travis Linden: Not just oh, I'm gonna go on vacation for a week, or whatever. But it's like you really have to let go of that like old identity before whatever the next step is can actually, you can actually be convinced that it's like real. I can't really tell people exactly how to get there, but you have to accept that that's where you need to go and that needs to be.

Travis Linden: The next goal, kind of ironically, is like letting go of goals or whatever, because you really have to shut the old door before the next one opens. And that's, [00:48:00] I don't know I can't really tell people exactly how to get there, but that's what that starting, that's how I actually got through it.

Travis Linden: Yeah. And I also really had to admit that it, I was only not able to imagine myself ever making games again because I was burned out of it. I had to admit that before I was like, okay, maybe games aren't the enemy. Maybe just the burnout is the problem. And so now I'm actually really excited about even the next game that I'm gonna make after this.

Travis Linden: And I started getting excited about that again and I was like, maybe I can just accept that the thing that I went through is burnout and I'm gonna approach my career in a whole new way from now on. 

J.R.: I love it. Cool. Awesome. Well, on the topic of making games, we can now transition to the last one.

J.R.: Alright, so last one indie Game Studio. Tilia. Are we good? Well, I guess we can take this anywhere you want, but I wanted to ask about this project that you're working on are, I think, is it launched or is it still in beta or? 

Travis Linden: No, we're still testing it. Okay. Okay, gotcha. [00:49:00] So you can join the group of testers and play it till to the end for free.

Travis Linden: Right now there's only a little bit of content that's missing and then lots of bug fixes between now and the full version. But yeah, if you can play it for free right now if you send us a, a little report about bugs and stuff. Yeah. 

J.R.: Perfect. Okay, cool. So could you walk us through how this whole thing started?

Travis Linden: Yeah, so I've always been obsessed with games that are set on digital interfaces. So a game that's set on somebody's computer or set on somebody's phone or whatever, and I wanted to make one of those. Originally, it was back in 2018, I was playing Mystic Messenger. Are you familiar with Mystic Messenger?

Travis Linden: I'm not. It's, it's an anime dating suit. Okay, okay. That takes place on a phone where you're like, you have this like mysterious app on your phone and there's five beautiful boys on it. 

J.R.: Oh, okay. Okay. 

Travis Linden: Who you're like talking to. And I originally was like, okay, I wanna do this, but I wanna make it [00:50:00] take place over several different apps, like a bunch of different social media and stuff in addition to the messaging app.

Travis Linden: And so I was originally going to make a dating sim that was set on a phone, but I pivoted away from that and I was like, okay, I just wanna make a regular like drama, narratively, but also still set like on a phone. And so the whole thing's been my, project, my like conception from the start.

Travis Linden: I really wanted to make something like that. And I made a actually the dating sim version of it originally I made a Game Jam project, which is a when you make a game in like a short period of time, like a few days or a couple of weeks or something. So me and some friends made a game over, like the course of two weeks.

Travis Linden: That's exactly that concept of a dating sim that takes place over like social media and messaging app. And we put it on the internet for free. And last I checked, which was like six months ago or something, 42,000 people had played it. Even though we had absolutely no marketing scheme or like [00:51:00] anything like that.

Travis Linden: So I was like, okay. I think that the interest of people who wanna play narrative games on a phone, like I think that that interest overlap is like pretty big. 

J.R.: Wait, how really quick, how did they find the game then? 

Travis Linden: It was on itch.io, which is basically just like a website version of Steam. Okay. Where people can upload anything that they want.

Travis Linden: So it's a big hub for indie projects like ours for people to just discover weird news stuff that's, nobody's talking about basically. 

J.R.: Okay. Yeah. 

Travis Linden: So people were literally searching and our game was like a little bit K-pop themed. So we put it under like the K-pop like category and it was like number one in the K-pop category.

Travis Linden: Wow. For like a couple of weeks. So people who were just looking for something that had anything to do with K-Pop or dating Sims or for free on their phone or whatever, found our project through that website. Yeah. 

J.R.: Dope. Okay, cool. Yeah. So then you said it, so how does that transition over to what you, the current game?

Travis Linden: Yeah. [00:52:00] So, I started working on it with a good friend of mine who is writing it while I am programming it and like doing the photography and stuff. Because another major interesting point of the game is that all the art in it is like real photography, not illustration, which is both a personal interest for me.

Travis Linden: 'cause, I had mentioned earlier I like face to face time with people. That's part of why I'm a professor and not a programmer. And so that gives me like studio time with people.

J.R.: And you're a photographer.

Travis Linden: Yeah. Yeah. And I do photography as a hobby. Yeah. Thanks. Yeah. And so it was a interest of mine and I think that it helps give this like very real social media feeling to it.

Travis Linden: And we went through a couple of iterations on the story and landed on this like boy band mystery thing. 'cause we were like, going back to that game that a bunch of people played on Itch io just because they were looking for the K-pop tag, we were like, okay, people who like narrative games, people who were playing games on their phone and people who like K-pop and the whole boy band thing.

Travis Linden: Big overlap. Lots of big, I'm trying to make a Venn [00:53:00] diagram here. Lots of overlapping interests here. That's perfect. I really think that people will enjoy this. There's a big audience who's really gonna enjoy this and obviously huge interest overlaps for me too because for, any listeners who don't know JR and I met because I was taking his like K-pop dance classes.

Travis Linden: So like perfect alignment between something that I wanna make and something that I think people also wanna play. So, and there's this perfect fit between what are we, what can we actually. What story can we actually tell that happens over the internet? And it really has to be a story about the internet, because if there's no in-person component, there's no sequences where you get off your phone.

Travis Linden: The whole game is like taking place on a phone over simulated these little fake social media apps and messaging app and stuff. So what kind of story can we tell that is really only taking place on the internet? It really has to be about the internet and something that's about the internet and k-pop.

Travis Linden: [00:54:00] That's why I half jokingly, but also earnestly call it a boy band stalking sim because this is about you trying to solve a mystery about a boy band through increasingly sketchy means on the internet. Yeah. And I'm like I love it so much. I think that it's, it was very fascinating and fun for me to build and I hope that it's equally fascinating fun for people to play.

J.R.: Yeah, I like that. I like the whole stocking cross out sleuthing, like, oh, okay. 

Travis Linden: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're mentioning like the website. Yeah. So the way that I wrote the marketing text for the website or whatever is yeah, you're stalking and then it, that's crossed out and then sleuthing like clues.

Travis Linden: Yeah. Because there's supposed to be that kind of sketchy feel to it, mm-hmm. It's not mm-hmm. It is at the end of the day and in an indie game written by pretentious indie people who love analyzing games and movies and stuff. And so it's supposed to be a little interesting on top of the just fun k-pop stuff.

J.R.: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So now I love, thanks for sharing like, the vision and how it all came together and the concept of it. So now, next I wanna ask, like, how [00:55:00] does one approach making a game like this?

J.R.: Again, I'm an outsider. I don't know the first thing about making a game, but how does, from a high level perspective, how does one approach, like the whole process of it?

Travis Linden: Yeah. So. You've got a bunch of people with totally different skill sets and then you have to have somebody to bring them all together and make it all come together somehow. Who is me? So these always start like if you are interested in making an indie game, you basically have to start with having somebody who's gonna decide what's actually like in the game.

Travis Linden: Like what the game is and somebody who can code it. Like those are two, the two skill sets that you basically can't go without, like somebody who's gonna build it, even if they're not using code. Even if they're using like, we've got some code free ways of putting the game logic together.

Travis Linden: You've got somebody who's gotta build it and somebody who's gotta decide what it is. Sometimes those are one person, which was me in this case. And then you also need people, like for all the different skill sets of all the other stuff, who's gonna, [00:56:00] that's gonna go in the game And so.

Travis Linden: Like I started by just programming it and prototyping how the like messaging, app dialogue was gonna work and what the other apps were gonna look like. And I slowly just brought in other people to help contribute to it with me. And when you're making an indie game, the biggest question that you have to ask is, how much money do I have?

Travis Linden: And how much am I gonna pay people to like work on it with me? Right. And so the biggest skill that I was lacking that I absolutely could not do by myself was the writing, because I have experience with obviously the photography, the programming, and I figured I'd just wing it with the design 'cause that's what everybody does.

Travis Linden: I have a little bit of design knowledge a lot more now that I've built it. Yeah. But I knew that I could not do good writing, like by myself. And my partner at the time was really interested in pivoting from working in film to maybe getting into the game industry.

Travis Linden: So we were like, well, this is perfect. You can like work on it with me and we'll leverage that for helping you get into the game [00:57:00] industry. And then also I have a writer on my game. So in the film industry, they call it trade for trade when you're not paying somebody. So you have to figure out like, how much money do I have to pay people?

Travis Linden: How much can I raise? Do I wanna make a business out of it? And who will work on it with me for free? Those are the big like things that you have to figure out. Okay. So is that answering your question? 

J.R.: It does. I have a follow-up question now. So cool budgets and how much you wanna put into it.

J.R.: It's a consideration for almost every industry, right? Or pretty much every industry. Yeah. So, and then you mentioned trade for trade. So then how does one, I don't know, leverage trade, negotiate or bring on talents and then figuring that out? Asking for a friend slash myself? 

Travis Linden: Yes. Yeah. So the key to that is that you need to be like working in the industry with people and like building up like trust and relationships with them.

Travis Linden: So for example, the person who's doing the music on our project, Lucian, I know [00:58:00] him because he worked on all of those game Jam projects. So game jams are always something that people work on for free. Nobody gets paid to do that. That's always for fun, for practice, for awards, whatever. But it's really short term. That's why people do it for free. 'cause it's like just a weekend or whatever.

Travis Linden: And so every single game Jam project that I did, he worked on, and I met him through a mutual friend who like brought him on to do those game Jam projects with us. Everybody else that I know who's made any indie game that was like ever finished, any of their relationships that were people who were like doing stuff for free, they had done some kind of previous work with them so that they had already been building up that trust and knowing oh, I know that I can work with you.

Travis Linden: The people who I did the original demo of the game with, 'cause we actually wrote a third of the story and then scrapped it for like the new version. The people who were the models for that one for the photos, I basically just offered them free headshots in return for doing their shoots with us. And so the [00:59:00] shoot that I did with them, we took their headshot and we took photos for me. So that's our like trade for trade, right? So yeah, you always need to be like offering something, whether it's that you have that pre-established relationship or you have something else to offer them.

Travis Linden: Or also sometimes models and actors will just do things for free just 'cause they think your project is interesting. And they wanted in their portfolio. Which is originally how I got the models to work on Ice Coffee, which is, sorry, ice Coffee. That was like the name of the project before we had the actual title for it. That was like our, secret project title or whatever, our like working title. 

J.R.: I see. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, so Ice Coffee is the same thing as this one? 

Travis Linden: Yes. Okay. Are we good? Yeah. Yeah. We were calling it Project Ice Coffee when we were like pitching it before we had a final title for it.

Travis Linden: The actors for that were doing it just to work on something interesting. But when I landed the grant from Netflix, I actually used that money to pay them. I see. Yeah. So they did get. Yeah, they didn't get paid eventually, [01:00:00] but they agreed to do it for no pay. But then I decided to pay them. 'cause I was like, well now I actually have the money for it. So this is, I think, a great use of my budget. 

J.R.: Right, right, right. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, no, that answers my question. 'cause I think, I guess some context so I wanna do some creative projects in the future, specifically to create some like a film with a friend of mine who also does filmmaking. And so I was just wrapping my hand around it as someone who's never done that before. It's like, okay, to create a project.

J.R.: Obviously we're not trying to make it a business. It's more of an artistic sort of thing. And then how I would bring on or approach that situation of we need to get talent and we don't really have funding. And it's more of just this sort of fun thing to do. But that makes a lot of sense. It's like figuring out your networks and what you can offer them and figuring out what works for both of you. And then if you do get funding, then you can disperse that or whatever. 

Travis Linden: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. You just kind of always have to, have something to offer people. It's weird but also good at the same time 'cause I know some people might be like, what do you mean you weren't gonna pay your actors?

Travis Linden: It's weird, but [01:01:00] also good at the same time that people will work on projects for free, because anybody who doesn't have that access to like connection, like big connections, big money, family, money, whatever, to get their projects done. The only way that people get projects done or get experience, if they don't like, especially their first thing, if they don't have that, like born into access to capital, is by like working with other people.

Travis Linden: But then I still hope that I'm offering people something. It's like an opportunity to work on something that you think is interesting and do the thing that you love. Working in an environment that's actually supportive. So a lot of my cast and crew told me that our set had like great vibes or reminded them about what they love about working on set and stuff like that. And that's because I put a lot of in effort into being like, this is a diverse cast. We're gonna treat each other well, we're gonna have reasonable hours, stuff like that. So I hope that I'm also offering, Hey, let's do what we love and get [01:02:00] stuff under our belt and get projects under our belt and support each other.

Travis Linden: And then also be a good environment and get to do something that we love. Before we have nasty bosses who are paying us and get to take advantage of our good hearts or whatever. 

J.R.: Right, right. 

Travis Linden: Yeah. 

J.R.: I like it. Next question I have is, biggest challenges with this project and or the best parts. Maybe some of that is inherent, but I'm just curious. 

Travis Linden: Biggest challenges really. My first biggest challenge was like exactly what you asked, which is like, how do I get all this stuff done that I can't do that I need other people for the writing, the modeling, the stuff like that without a lot of money. That was challenge number one. Which is part of where that grant really came in clutch because that was absolutely necessary to get the UI done. So, the user interface, for those of you who aren't familiar, that's just anytime that you're using any software, the buttons, the windows the what you see, the fonts, everything, all of those decisions. Huge for our game because our game's just apps. Everything in [01:03:00] our game is just apps. I had to have somebody design those. I'm terrible at user interface design. That was something that we used the budget on. The models, the sets, the lights, the props, the everything. Just money for everything was like a big thing, and so that grant was a huge part in enabling like all of that.

Travis Linden: The second question is. How do we make it good with the limited budget that we have in the limited time because this is not my full-time job and I don't wanna do it for the rest of my life. So how many times are we gonna iterate on this? How many times are we gonna scrap stuff and test it and redo and fix stuff with the limited amount of time and resources that we have? That's the other giant question that anybody making indie anything, but especially like movies and games have to ask like, how much iteration can we possibly go through?

Travis Linden: And so the people who are helping us test right now and fix all those bugs and stuff, hugely helpful. Because me as the programmer who's been staring at this project for like years and years, I'm not gonna catch all the bugs that somebody else does. So [01:04:00] that's really important.

Travis Linden: And then question number three is how do we get anybody to play it? Mm-hmm. Even after it's done and it's good, which I think that it's definitely good and mostly done. We got a couple bugs left to fix, how do we get it in front of anybody? And I have not solved that issue yet. Because the answer to that was supposed to be get a big budget so that we can do a big like marketing campaign.

Travis Linden: Simply do not have the money for that. So it's okay, now I gotta figure out, am I gonna leverage TikTok? I don't know. Oh man. What am I gonna do to like actually get this in front of people? Those are the big challenges. 

J.R.: So challenges. The other side of that was like best parts, I don't know, to make this, yeah, I mean, I think the audience can already sense your enthusiasm about what you do and all the fun side of it.

J.R.: Yeah. But just to wrap it up, do you, are there any parts that you wanna throw out there that stand out to you? 

Travis Linden: Yeah. Best parts, like the sets that we had, like working with all of the actors. Oh my God. So working with actors was like. Like basically any [01:05:00] human interaction is my favorite part of working on anything.

Travis Linden: Working with actors was so like eye-opening to me that I really wanna like work with actors again. We had an interesting, weird circumstance where we just needed photos. So we brought on people that were actors, that were models, that were all kinds of like in between, that had just any kind of experience in front of a camera basically.

Travis Linden: One of our actors, like what he does for a living is like scare acting and he does like stunts and stuff and like scare acting. Which is super, super cool. We had all of these different people on the project and actor's whole job, which is, I, something I learned through during this project is to get excited about a project, figure out what's interesting about it, and then really dig into the character and stuff.

Travis Linden: So we provided a huge opportunity for them to do the first two things, but because we're not doing any video, so they're just posing, what I really want to do with the next one, which I'm gonna do video for, which I'm very excited about, is really dig into that last one of like actually like letting them dig into [01:06:00] the character and then actually do some directing.

Travis Linden: So that was really fun and really inspirational. And actors just, they're such like interesting people. Their job is so fascinating and working with them is so much fun. The other best part is just putting it in front of people. And those moments that I talked about earlier where it's like somebody talks about their interpretation of the game. And either they get it, they get exactly what I was trying to put out, or they bring their own thoughts or feelings about it and they say something that you didn't even think about could be a message or an aspect of that character or something that's so magical. Like when people bring something that you didn't even think about as the person who designed the game into like their personal interpretation of it. That's so cool.

Travis Linden: Yeah. Very ironic. Video game developer, you think of somebody who just like sits at a computer all day. But my favorite aspect is always any part of my job is those like human interactions.

J.R.: I like it. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's the best part about art in general is that you can [01:07:00] always have an intention for an art, but art is meant to be reinterpreted and consumed and it affects people in ways you don't even expect.

J.R.: And that is kind of like one of the best parts of creating art, right? It's like I never knew or saw that that way, or Wow, it affected you this way. I wasn't expecting that. 

Travis Linden: Yeah, no, totally. And I've definitely had people like say things to me about it and then been like. That's great. I should add another post or message or something that supports like that kind of line of thinking. 'Cause that's fascinating actually, yeah. 

J.R.: Because it's like an evolving art at that point. 'cause you're getting feedback from people who are in it and experiencing it and then now you can make it better. 

Travis Linden: Yeah. That's the most magical thing about like making games too, as opposed to any other medium is the interactivity is so core to it. That's what makes it stand out from the definition of it from any other me medium is like the interactivity. And so the iteration part of it, like seeing how somebody responds to it and then changing it, based on those [01:08:00] responses is I mean that's why I am so passionate about it.

Travis Linden: Like very magical. Yeah. 

J.R.: Perfect. Alright, last question I have just now to take a step back. Advice. Advice for people who want to make it indie game or get to the point where you're at. Do you have any general advice for them? 

Travis Linden: Yeah. I think continuing to follow up about what we were talking about earlier about like how does anything get done, I really just wanna reiterate that like the relationships that you make as an artist with other people that are working in that same medium that are at like your level of experience or level of like success or whatever, those are the most like, invaluable people to you.

Travis Linden: When we think of the word, like networking, I feel like for some reason what we imagine is making a connection with somebody who's like way above you, some like boss or whatever, and then them giving you a job later. No, that's not what's important. The important thing is making connections with people who you genuinely think that what they are making is like good or interesting [01:09:00] and being like, let's make good and interesting things together.

Travis Linden: If you are a student, the most important thing that you can do is make connections with other students so that you can make projects with them that go in your portfolio. And so that when you graduate, you have people in your network all over the industry who can tell you like whether or not the bosses suck.

Travis Linden: You can be like, yeah, this manager is nice. Oh, this manager's treating me like shit, or whatever. And then you can talk to each other, right? Like that to me, those kind of networks. And then if you wanna make something indie, then you know, you have friends that you've you went through school with, or you worked with or you did game jams with, or all of those things.

Travis Linden: And then you're like, yeah, I think the art that you, your illustration is really cool. Or I think you're a really talented programmer, or I love the music that you make or whatever. And then you'll end up like, working on your indie projects together because you just genuinely like each other's work.

Travis Linden: That's so much more valuable especially when you are getting started out than money, connections, whatever. That's the foundation of everything. Those other things definitely help you [01:10:00] achieve big projects, but you can't even get started if you don't have those relationships.

J.R.: That's a great takeaway. Okay. Is there anything else we missed on this topic before we land the plane for the entire interview?

Travis Linden: I think we got it. 

J.R.: Yeah. No, I mean, that's solid. I'm endlessly fascinated and good. I, I enjoy hearing you. I wanna say Yap, but it's, for me, it's more profound than just yapping. I'm like, oh, this is so interesting. Yeah. And you're a great communicator, so I appreciate that. 

Travis Linden: Thanks.

Travis Linden: Well, that's my profession is professional yapping. There you go. As much as I'm like, oh, I don't lecture or whatever they still hired me technically to be a professional yapper, so. Right. So I, I hope that, that is my job title. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

J.R.: Perfect. I like it. Okay, cool. All right, let's wrap it up, then we'll go into ending questions.

J.R.: So Travis what are you grateful for? 

Travis Linden: I'm so grateful for my partner right now. My partner's in grad school. Totally different program, but in the same school that I teach at. And we are like each other's like lifeline right now for making everything work. We are [01:11:00] such a good team with like trading off, like making dinner and our chores and our life and like making everything work.

Travis Linden: And I'm so grateful for that because everything that we're both like achieving right now. Like I don't doing this solo. Maybe I could do it, but it would suck without them. It would be so much harder. Yeah. I'm very grateful for my partner. 

J.R.: I love it. Yeah. Fantastic. Okay. Any final ask from the audience or any final takeaways you'd like them to have from this conversation?

Travis Linden: Yeah. If you're a professor lecture less, please. Oh my God. I'm gonna make a whole career out of campaigning for professors to lecture less and do more in class activities.

Travis Linden: If the stuff about burnout resonated with you at all, the key is to be less hard on yourself. So if any of that resonated with you at all, like really, you can give yourself permission to take a step back and ask some inward questions about what's going on. And there [01:12:00] is a light at the end of the tunnel. I really did not. I was like, I don't know what's gonna happen. I didn't know, like genuinely, I told you how I was not enjoying anything. I couldn't imagine anything ambitious for my future at all.

Travis Linden: But now I got through it. So I really believe that other people can too. So if that was resonating with you, definitely take a step back and think about it a little bit. And if you're a student, please come to office hours. Yeah, I wanna talk to you guys. I've always got a gaggle of students in there all the time, but there's always room for more.

J.R.: Love it. Yeah. Cool. Nice. I love that message of hope and open doors. Yeah. All right. Yes. Final, final question is where can we find you, Travis, if people wanna see what you're up to or check out what you're doing or connect with you? 

Travis Linden: Yeah I'm gonna plug the games website first which is studio tilia games.com.

Travis Linden: That's where you can go see like the project that I'm talking about. Even if you're just curious and you want to go see, I made some really cool key art for it. Please just, go look at the art. It's called the photos that I made. They're super, [01:13:00] super cool. And then if you think it's really intriguing, maybe play it for free for now while you can and leave us a little bit of feedback. I want to hear your opinions. If you wanna follow me on social media that I'm out of manna on Blue Sky and Instagram are the two best places to find me. I'm sure JR will link the exact spellings and whatnot of those. And please check out the game. Yeah, definitely. Like I said, I just want people to play it. 

J.R.: Yeah. This I hope, my hope is that this whole interview is like a huge pitch that they can feel the enthusiasm and even if they're just a little bit curious, they can just go to website, click on it, play it out, and see how they like it.

Travis Linden: And if you if you're a big game publisher and you got a lot of money, pretend like I didn't say anything about not wanting to do biz dev.

Travis Linden: Nevermind. I'm selling out. Come give me your money. I'll make an incredible project and I'll make you millions of dollars. 

J.R.: There you go. Yeah. We love that. Yeah. Perfect. All right, cool. I'll wrap up now. So thank you again, Travis, for being here. I really appreciate it. Mm-hmm. Thoroughly enjoyed this. I'll be listening to this multiple times.

J.R.: It's always a pleasure to have you on the show. And so I'll do my final sign off to the audience. Thank you guys for [01:14:00] being here. I really appreciate it. Be sure to like, follow, subscribe, all that cool, fun stuff. Leave Travis love in the comments below as well, and leave us our show wherever we listen to this five stars.

J.R.: So please do that. Helps with the show, discoverability, et cetera. But a reminder to always be kind to other people, especially yourself and remember that you can always learn something from someone if you take the time to listen. So thank you guys for being here. 

Travis Linden: Awesome.